Total Depravity - part 2

It is fascinating to me how passionate people are about this particular theological subject. Within twenty-four hours of my last post, I had two comments from people I don't even know! I thought it might be good to clarify, and answer some of the points brought up in those comments, before moving on to the other points of Calvinism.

First of all, I was not attempting to be exhaustive in the previous post about Total Depravity. I was attempting simply to deal with the aspects of that particular doctrine that I found somewhat fallacious, or maybe just incomplete. "aworthydiscussion" said,

"Saying that man doesnt need divine intervention to respond to God puts you in the pelagian camp which says man has the ability to respond to God in and of himself."

First of all, allow me to reiterate a point from my previous post. I never said that we don't need divine intervention from God to respond to Him, exactly the opposite. My point was that God provided that divine intervention for everyone in Jesus Christ, and now we need to look to Him to be saved. Thus the divine intervention we need is part of the finished work of Christ. We don't need further intervention beyond what Jesus did. To say that we do, diminishes the perfect and complete work of Christ. Furthermore, I did concede the point that we need the Holy Spirit to draw us to God. However, I would also emphasize the point that the Holy Spirit draws all men to God, but some don't listen. This is part of His present ministry in the world.

I believe in the basic premise of Total Depravity, that all men are completely wicked, enemies of God, hostile to God, dead in trespasses and sins, etc. I disagree, however, with the conclusion that this depravity precludes our ability to hear, understand, and believe the Gospel when it is preached. I believe that all people (not just the 'elect') have the ability to respond to God, but only the 'elect' actually do respond. And again, I don't believe that man "has the ability to respond to God in and of himself," because I believe that man has nothing in and of himself! Even his ability to reject God, is a gift from God!!

And in response to Stan - I hope I can be as magnanimous in my response as you were in yours - whether talking about a 'revelation from God' or 'spiritual life,' the question still remains: when is this 'spiritual life' given, and through what means?

I think we are essentially dealing with an equivocation of terms here, Stan. Calvinism still essentially says that there must be a moment of 'divine intervention' where God imparts that life (I agree up to this point), but that this life comes as an act of immediate, supreme sovereignty, that requires nothing of the recipient (not even faith), and which the recipient is powerless to resist (now we're into Irresistible Grace and Unconditional Election). What I say, and what I believe the Bible clearly teaches, is that it is the faith of the individual that releases the immediate grace of God - faith in the message preached. This ascribes no merit to the person, per Ephesians 2:8, 9 & Romans 11:6. I have heard Calvinists insist that if it were required for a person to believe in order to be saved, than that would mean that we somehow earned God's favor. Yet Paul is VERY clear that individual faith is the means by which we receive grace. 'Faith' and 'works' are mutually exclusive. "It is by faith, and not by works," how then can we call faith a work???

To sum up:

1. I believe that all men are completely wicked by nature, by choice, and by divine declaration.
2. I do not believe that our wickedness means that we are unable to understand and accept the basic Gospel message (the "natural man" can understand nothing more of God than this, but he can understand the Gospel, cf. 1 Cor. 2, distinction of "the mature" - what did he preach to the others? 1Cor. 2:2).
3. I believe that the person of Jesus Christ, and His completed work on the cross is the 'divine intervention' from God that allows all men to be saved.
4. I believe that faith is the means of receiving God's grace - and that faith is ultimately a choice.